Pokerhaus

Lesson one: Watch the up cards.

Watching the outs is a key thing in all variations in poker, but there is never a higher emphasis placed on this than in Stud games.  Razz is a game where the up cards will affect your future actions on your hand, and your level of aggressiveness during the hand.

Also, Razz is one of the only games that where you can guage your hand strength based on what cards are face up.  When I first started, I followed a strict hand ranking chart.  While this can help you get a firm grasp on what hands you should be looking to play, and I would recommend you at least look at a hand ranking chart for Razz, it becomes less important when you are observant of what cards are gone. 

Here is an example question of this.  I will give two possible scenarios for this same problem.  You are given a choice between two hands to start with: A23 and 457.  Without knowing what up cards would be dealt, you would automatically pick A23 to start, as it is statistically the best hand to start with in Razz.  Now let's throw a curve at you.

You are dealt into an 8-handed Razz game.  Here is everyone's up cards:  K, 9, T, Q, J, 9, 8.  Which hand would you rather start with?

The answer to this is obviously A23 again.  Now here's a bigger curve:

You are dealt into an 8-handed Razz game.  Here is everyone's up cards:  K, 7, T, 5, 5, 8, 4.  Which hand would you rather start with?

If you automatically said A23 again, you are wrong.  On this texture of a board, 457 is now the best possible starting hand, as you are now missing one known out (and a weak out at that) from the deck.  Even better, 4 cards that would pair you are now missing from the deck.  A23 is missing 5 outs.  A23 currently, as far as we know, still has all 9 cards in the deck that would pair it.  While statistically, 457 is one of the weakest three card sevens to start, this hand is golden on a 3rd street like this, and should be played hard in this situation.  Facing even a completion and a raise, I would go ahead and 3-bet this, just because the chances of my pairing is so low.  While I wouldn't necessarily want to fold A23 here, I would probably let it go facing a three bet here, simply because the cards out of the deck have weakened this hand to the point where it's going to be very hard to make a hand with it.

This is one of those situations that most razz novices do not see.  They will play A23 hard even seeing this board, and go 3 6 2 9, and then complain about some idiot capping 754 against them, not realizing that as the cards lie on 3rd street, that it was correct for him to do so.

The key is to look at all the up cards on third street and later streets, and analyze the strength of your hand from that, then play it accordingly.

More on Razz later.

I'm going to start posting these as I come up with them.  It may take a while to fully piece them together, but after a while, it'll all fully make sense.  Right now, I'm just thinking of the important things that a lot of Razz players miss, and trying to convey that.

Lesson 2: Position in Razz.

A new Razz player once asked me how important position was in Razz.  He only wanted a simple answer, but it's not possible with this question.

Position is only important on two streets in Razz: 3rd and 7th.  These are the only two streets when you will have any real idea as to what your position will be.  On 3rd, it will depend on who the bring-in is, but you will at least know whether you are in early or late position.  On 7th, you will know what position you are in because it will be the same betting order as 6th street.  Since the lowest hand acts first on every street in Razz, it is impossible to tell who will be first to act on the next street, as the lowest hand on 4th street will not necessarily be the lowest on 5th street, as a face card or a pair could change that.

Now that you know which streets are position-critical, what can you do to play your position correctly?

3rd street is very straightforward.  Play tight in earlier position, playing only strong hands, with the exception of if you are the only low up card on the board (8 or lower), in which case you should complete to steal.  In late position, you should be more apt to steal.  If there's three more people to act behind you in an unopened pot (including the bring-in), you are showing a 5, and the last three cards are a 3, 9 and K, it is usually correct to complete and try to steal the antes and bring-in.

7th is a lot more complicated.  You will have to ask yourself a ton of questions, and these questions will need to be answered on 6th street before you can even proceed to 7th.  If you have proceeded to 7th street, your decision should almost be automatic based on the questions you asked yourself.

Here's a list of questions that I'm asking myself on 6th street.  As long as this list sounds, I can usually figure out the answers in a couple of seconds, since I have been constantly asking myself these questions throughout the hand.

1. What is my hand?
2. Am I drawing live to improve?
3. Do I need to improve if he improves?
4. What is his hand?

(If I'm to act first on 7th)

5. If I don't improve, can I still safely bet my hand?
6. If I check, and he bets, can I call his bet?
7. (relative to 6) Would he bet unimproved?  (Important in check/calling, very important in check/raising if I have him drawing dead).

(If I'm to act last on 7th)

8. If he bets, can I call?
9. If he checks, can I bet improved?  Unimproved?
10. Is he capable of check/raising?

We'll get around to addressing these key decisions soon, but I wanted to lay out position in Razz, so that when we get that far, you will already understand the basic concept of position in this game.

http://www.cardplayer.com/tv/23593

Tom McEvoy knows a thing or 2 about razz, learn from him!

thanks im going to put these lessons to use in in the near future

BKiCe wrote:

onlyme386 wrote:

Tom McEvoy knows nothing about poker do NOT learn from him!

fyp?

note: this fyp was made solely on the basis of a PPL episode i watched where tom mcevoy did about 5 things that i thought were unthinkable at the time (don't really remember any of them now)

He's a much better Razz player, I'm guessing you were watching NLHE.  Tom is working on a new Razz book, and that's his main game.  The vid posted is pretty basic but the "10 Commandments" he talks about starting at the 10 minute mark are pretty solid and should definitely be helpfull.

BKiCe wrote:

i might jump off a cliff if my best poker game was razz, just sayin

i'll watch it later got lotsa school shit for the rest of the week

I agree about that cliff, but I know lots of you play HORSE and you at least want to be able to hold your own.  I've pretty much given up on Razz cash games at this point, maybe I'll come back to them at another time but I can't imagine grinding it out playing that game.

I swear to God I'm going to get back to finishing this.  Unfortunately, several bad turns in my life not related to poker have me living paycheck to paycheck and unable to even get money together to even play.  Once I can though, I'll finish this up.

HangukMiguk wrote:

I swear to God I'm going to get back to finishing this.  Unfortunately, several bad turns in my life not related to poker have me living paycheck to paycheck and unable to even get money together to even play.  Once I can though, I'll finish this up.

BAO IS SOWWIE TO HEAR THAT

and don't rush to finish this, sort out everything you need to first before you even get to this as i'm sure those other matters are much much more important. gl sir

BKiCe wrote:

no not baxter wrote:

plz do..i love this game

you've never played razz, have you mike

i used to play it on FTP a lot prob like 1.5 years ago. I did very well in the game and was building a nice roll from it. I forget exactly what happened since I was 16 at this time (lool underageaments) but I think I went busto and then just never started playing it again. Maybe it was because I got bored of it? Who knows...

And I dont find it as harsh a game as everyone says...

Last edited by no not baxter (05-15-07 12:54:03)

The_Bao wrote:

liar

weeee you rock

keep up the good work

This one is inspired by a Razz session where I played some insane players and a IM convo with onlyme:

Lesson 4: Disguishing between players.

(WARNING: I'm going out of order.  I don't have any distinguishable order set out with these lessons.  Some of this may go over your head from lack of playing Razz.  I hope not.

Here's the thing: Simple truth, for the most part, when you start out playing Razz, it is completely automatic.  Even as you improve and learn more advanced theories in Razz, it's still automatic, but you do have some more room to work with.

But as I was saying, most newcomers are very automatic.  They will fall into one distinguishable style, and not stray from it.  They will either play their hands straightforward, and check their pairs, or they will play their boards, and try to push you off hands when they have scary boards, whether they paired or not.  Good players will be able to do both, but tend to lean slightly towards one way or the other.

But the question is not yet about good players, we're going to first discuss how to exploit the bad players.  The obvious first stopping point is the straightforward players.  Obviously, when they check, you're going to bet, because that indicates weakness which indicates that you might take the pot.

The tougher question is: How do you fight back against the steamroller who fires at you with every scare board he has?  He can't have a hand every time, but yet, with margainal cards, it's hard to call him down!

The trick isn't calling him down.

Let me give you an example.

Let's assume, at a 6 handed game, everyone else is dealt paint cards, you are dealt 952.  The villain in this hand, one of the superaggressive types we talked about, who will bet any insanely good-looking board, completes with a 3 showing.  You call, knowing villain could be stealing, and knowing most of your outs are probably live, and everyone else folds.

On 4th, you are dealt an seven, and he is dealt a 4.  He bets, and you call.

On 5th, you are dealt a 6, giving you 97652 (a margainal holding in razz), and he is dealt an eight.  He bets, again.

In this spot, I will raise.  This is a theory in Razz I call the probe raise, one which I've known for well over a year, and have never seen written about.  Here's what it does in practice:

1) It creates an attempt to gain betting control in a hand that will be controlled by the villain throughout the hand unless he gets a face card or open pairs.  We know the villain will bet the hand down if he is first to act.

2) It tells us EXACTLY how committed the villain is to the hand.  Surprisingly, the same type of player who plays this way is also incredibly susceptible of falling into playing his hand for its true value when faced with resistance.  They have no other way of playing.  They pump the pot, and get people to either lay down, or they scoop a pot at the end with a big hand, which then reinforces the idea not to mess with them.  When people raise them when they are on a bluff or have a weakish hand, they don't know what to do.

More often than not, I will see them fold right there, either they started with an autosteal with paint behind, or they have made hidden pairs.

3) IF they decide to continue on with the hand, you have now succeeded in intimidating the intimidator.  If another baby card comes for you on 6th, they will now be scared that whatever strong hand you had on 5th street only got better on 6th, and will be faced with an even tougher decision on 7th if they call 6th.  Usually they don't.

One thing you should watch out for when this happens, however, is when the villain calls 5th, hits another baby card on 6th, and bets again.  This is usually a TRUE SIGN THAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT BEING BOARD LOCKED!  On occasion, it will be an innocuous bet that signifies a desperation bluff, but this is a rare circumstance, and if I take my hand to showdown, I'm likely to have found myself beat on 6th.

I won't do this every time, because then they expect the raise.  Well, some do.  In lower limits, most will be oblivious and steaming long before they understand what just happened.

This play is rendered almost ineffective in tournaments except for deepstack situations obviously.  But in cash games, this a good tool which, when used at decent times, and with your own careful observation, will maximize your profits, and equip you to play against all types of bad players.

NOW, what happens when you're a LAGtard like me, and play your board like so, then find yourself becoming the victim of such a play as the probe raise?   Usually, you won't find yourself in this position until you get to middle/high stakes play, but it will happen SOMETIME, so all the better to equip you now while we're on the subject. If you say, "tuck tail and run," I'm going to smack you.

Let's try a 3-bet there.  While this seems nonsensical, there is good theory behind this play:

1) A good player will see you trying to bully the table, throwing your chips in front of what seems to be powerhouse hands.
2) A good player will know that it is not possible that you have a lock every time.
3) A good player, who has been around Razz long enough, will understand the probe raise, and will be willing to use it to knock you off the hand.
4) Knowing this player will pounce at you, even if you hold napkins down, you MUST 3-BET THIS!

With all the steamrolling you have been doing, there has probably been very few 3-bets/caps by you, and most of the time, you were holding a strong hand when you did it, as those hands probably went to showdown.  A good player will expect a call or a fold, when faced with a 3-bet, he will suspect a real hand, and usually fold, or go into calldown mode.  Even if he goes into calldown mode, any more scare cards on your board will make him think twice about that decision.

Granted, if he caps betting, it is time to give up the fight, because he obviously has got something stronger than we expected, and that his raise wasn't really a probe raise.

Probe raises.  Use them.

Last edited by HangukMiguk (12-19-07 02:02:35)